DJ and composer Nik Dawson aka Bookworms and Artist, digital archivist, and mastering engineer Russell E.L. Butler; two skilled practitioners and deep thinkers that currently call NYC home, sat down in the space after listening to Black Meteoric Star’s NYC Beat Boxx together to discuss the album, their memories of Black Meteoric Star and the lineages; both lost and known, of New York’s avant-garde musical life. (Editor’s note: After listening to the recording of this conversation between Nik and Russell I decided I wanted to transcribe it myself because there’s a cadence and rhythm to it that I’m particularly attuned to that felt important to honor, in a way I didn’t trust an AI transcription or professional transcriber to honor. I did my best to archive this as I put the sounds into writing. I was also struck by the richness of the references that both Nik and Russell made and added links where it seemed appropriate for folks interested in learning more about the things they refer to - Rayna.)
Russell: Allright, we are...
Nik: We are recording! Good day!
Russell: Uhhhhhhh
Nik: Beep boom Beep boom Beewww
Russell: (Laughs)
Nik: Little audio logo, y’know for…
Russell: Yeah I guess… I mean, like… How formal does this really need to be, y’know?
Nik: It’s like a podcast, it’s like Dream Tramps or something…
Russell: (Laughs)
Nik: This is gonna be like a podcast
Russell: (Announcer voice) Give a round of applause one time, give a round of applause one time for Bookworms, y’all
(Both laugh)
Nik: Like Apple Music, this is Apple Music, my co-host Russell E.L. Butler… and umm… we’re gonna give you the gift
Russell: Gonna give you that REAL……
So, uh, we just listened to the new Black Meteoric Star record...
Nik: Yeah
Russell: ...New York City Beat Boxx. Ummm… Really great record. Y’know I’m a bit more familiar with it, I feel like I, y’know can’t count the amount of listens that I’ve had at this point, this is your...
Nik: I’m actually a co-host
Russell: This was your first–
Nik: I’m actually the co-host.
Russell: Yeah.
Nik: (laughs) You’re not the co-host.
Russell: This was uh Nik Dawson’s first listen, so uh what are, y’know the thoughts and feelings that were coming up with Nik?
Nik: Thoughts and feelings? I don’t know, it was like, definitely like it’s very raw like Box Music in a way, real psychedelic, and kinda definitely reminded me of like some time traveling to some of Rayna’s like earlier, um... projects or work.
Russell: Yeah
Nik: Maybe even one of the ones, the one song even reminded me of some of the like kind of like, umm I don’t know what to… I don’t want to say Electroclash but… um… some of the bands that Rayna used to be in.
Russell: Word
Nik: Paper… Paper Eyes or something?
Russell: Yeah, yeah yeah
Nik: But um… the track with the vocals and everything. And just like, I don’t know… Machine Music, which is part of the sound that got me excited about analog stuff in the first place and the potentials of doing that stuff.
Russell: Yeah I totally... I think that it coming kinda from this like... uh, being, um, folks who are pretty familiar with synthesizers and drum machines, um, sonically but then also like kind of sequentially, uh, I feel like there’s a lot that we can kinda identify with within this, like… the simplicity, just the like, um, the… um….
Nik: It’s like the interlocking, kind of, this, like simple, concise…
Russell: Yeah, yeah, the kind of like the kind of like submitting to the loop
Nik: Yeah, the patterns that it kinda makes
Russell: Which I feel like y’know is the, y’know you talk about the psychedelic themes within Rayna’s work I think that that is a pretty consistent one, um, especially with the earlier records that we’re familiar with. Um, the the rawness, y’know the the, y’know we talked a little bit about the kinda uh, cassette tape quality of it and how cassettes kind of, especially from an artistic and conceptual perspective represent something past the kind of like aesthetic concerns of nostalgia for um… for forms of media past, y’know there are these, there are these qualities to recording to cassette; um… y’know the kind of immediacy of the play back, uh… as well as kind of the tonal and, at times, like, spatial qualities that the, uh… that the medium ends up giving, um… the sound
Nik: And improvising, improvising too kinda?
Russell: Yeah, and improvising too, y’know…
Nik: I mean there’s a, there’s a finality to, like the mixdown.
Russell: Yeah yeah. Yeah there’s this kind of like awareness of, um… of available time being like finite in some kind of way
Nik: Yeah yeah not just like…
Russell: Y’know it’s like, how much space to I really have left on this cassette
Nik: Yeah (laughs)
Russell: Or like, am I just gonna like jam the whole like 30 minute side, or y’know am I gonna try and fit like a few different things onto this one side of a cassette, or…
Nik: Yeah and like once you’ve kind of mixed it down to cassette, it’s pretty much done on some level…
Russell: Yeah yeah
Nik: It’s like a stereo recording to stereo recording to stereo recording…
Russell: Yeah, the rest of, the rest of the process is either just like correction or enhancement…
Nik: Yeah and just like, uh, just like what’s the term… like um, just curating I guess. Just deciding, like, y’know, like, yeah… where you want to start and stop, what you wanna actually use, which is like a kind of the finality that maybe you don’t get with some of the Abelton stuff or something, where you can go back and kinda make the… move the thing around a little bit or whatever (laughs).
Russell: Mmm Hmm
Nik: So I feel like I was, I don’t know, I was just definitely very inspired by that I don’t know by, uh, just like reading that… (trails off)
Russell: You want to speak up a little bit more?
Nik: Yeah (laughs) this easy… (laughs) this is what I do…
Russell: (laughs)
Nik: From reading that um… Oh I was gonna say yeah, inspired by the uh going straight to tape or just like um… doing live takes to stereo, um yeah I don’t always use tape, but um, a lot, but um… sometimes I use a Zoom recorder like what we’re recording on now, but just yeah, y’know I’m inspired by that, which is maybe kind of like, not the norm anymore, um, but just as an approach…
Russell: Yeah, yeah I mean it ends up being, um, being just like a... another kind of process strategy, y’know like...
Nik: Yeah, it kinda…
Russell: Um, constraints are particularly important to I feel like pretty much any creative process, um…
Nik: Yeah I just feel like it main… it’s... But there’s still something about it that maintains this kind of kinetic energy and I feel like that’s um… in a lot of this…
Russell: I think of the train a lot
Nik: What’s up?
Russell: Listening to it I think of the train
Nik: Yeah yeah definitely
Russell: A lot. I think of the train, a lot.
Nik: I mean....
Russell: I think of the motion of the train, the kind of internal culture of the train
Nik: Yeah
Russell: Like how the train kinda doesn’t leave you, even if you haven’t been on the train in a while (laughs), you know? It’s just this like, like, like raucous, like consistent presence regardless of how you get around the city, you know it’s…
Nik: Yeah and if you’re on it it’s kind of like…
Russell: It’s very underfoot, as well, at all times, y’know, like… Some of these tracks too are very much like fuckin like… fuckin, train platform grime, y’know…
Nik: Yeah definitely like, it definitely has the the sleaze and the um the (inaudible) feeling…
Russell: Yeah, at the at the very least like a kind of an embracing of this like, the kind of like, chaotic and like confrontational nature that like aspects of the city can have, y’know like I, um, one of the things I think about on trains a lot? Footwear.
Nik: Oh yeah
Russell: What people choose to wear out in the city; foot wise.
Nik: Oh yeah, that’s huge.
Russell: Cause it’s a major choice to go like almost barefoot, whether it’s in sandals or high heels or flip flops, like, in that zone. Y’know it’s almost like uh, you have to put out of your mind, like, what’s there.
Nik: I’m always like what if something falls?
Russell: Yeah, yeah. But then also like…
Nik: What if somebody just drops something?
Russell: ….like y’know, like, y’know one of the aspects of like, New York consumer culture in relation to uh y’know certain forms of music particularly Hip Hop and sneaker culture…
Nik: Yeah
Russell: ...it’s like there’s a whole lot of people on the train who have fresh ass kicks, y’know? There’s a whole lot of people who have fresh white uptowns, and they still get on the A or the 1 or the 2 or whatever and go about their business in this fuckin’, like…
Nik: Yeah, the grime…
Russell: (laughs) It’s crazy, like it’s so crazy to me, y’know? And like the amount of painstaking work that it takes, it’s a... it’s a very intentional statement of like resistance to an extent I mean it’s weird to like, y’know, experience that in the like everyday consumer object but to an extent it’s like; a pair of crispy white forces…
Nik: You gotta shine, you gotta stunt, a little bit
Russell: Regardless of like, the shit or... like what’s like, the fucked up shit that’s going on around you (laughs) um….
Nik: It’s beautiful
Russell: Yeah, yeah it’s… it’s kind of a spirit that I feel like I’ve associated with uh, with aspects of like New York music culture, and then also just kind of you know it’s like having a… for a long time having a very um, kind of tertiary experience of it, y’know? Most of what I’m experiencing is either like; short periods of time that I was here visiting, or like through music or through documentation of that music or cultural periods. And at the very least in those zones, y’know, in books and documentaries and stuff, like the… the grime is what’s kind of accentuated, um and in a lot of the kinds of um, at times countercultural and radical music that I got into earlier than when I got into synths was like; essentially downtown New York music, you know? And a lot of the stuff that I can really attribute to… to some extent, like… to some extent like my experience in dance music has been like (laughs) like a cyclical experience with a lot of the, uh, experiences I had with music in younger days, like… having the New York Noise compilation and getting super into DNA…
Nik: Absolutely, yeah…
Russell: … and James Chance and the Contortions and Teenage Jesus and the Jerks, but simultaneously…
Nik: Suicide too…
Russell: Simultaneously… And Suicide… but simultaneously getting into Dinosaur L…
Nik: Oh yeah yeah…
Russell: … and ESG
Nik: Absolutely. And the Arthur Russell solo stuff too, yeah
Russell: Yeah yeah… That came a little bit later in… in terms of, for me at least… um… uh, in terms of, like, uh, y’know, exploring more music that, like, that… where I was looking for more, more people who, uh, utilized these kinds of instruments in order to make music.
Nik: Yeah, but first…
Russell: Um… but before that I… when I was looking in… to look for things that were, like more different or more extreme or more kind of, um… y’know that just like stood out more…
Nik: DNA was huge…
Russell: Yeah
Nik: yeah, just for like, in the… Yeah… just for like deconstructing what I thought music could sound like, was kind of like overwhelming… Um, just like Suicide too I feel like…
Russell: Dawg, you gotta speak up
Nik: (laughs) Sorry!!! This is why people…
Russell: You’re like spittin real shit…
Nik: Haha, no I’m not
Russell: … but you’re like whispering TO ME
Nik: Yeah yeah yeah
Russell: Y’know?
Nik: Hell yeah, I know!
Russell: Like people shouldn’t just like read this and be like, damn Russell’s really smart, like I know that…
Nik: That’s why I’m always just…
Russell: Y’know like you are also really smart…
Nik: That’s why I just be recording…
Russel: … and like have things to contribute, which is…
Nik: That’s why I just be recording music… (laughs) nah you’re right…
Russell: I feel like, I should… I should move this closer to you…
Nik: Nooo no… I just gotta… face it
Russell: Nah nah nah you’re… you’re more comfortable talking…
Nik: I just gotta
Russell: Nah you’re more comfortable speaking like that...
Nik: Yeah
Russell: ...like, in this direction so I gotta move the recorder closer to you
Nik: Alright alright
Russell: And if they keep it for the article they keep it for the article
Nik: Yeah yeah
Russell: (laughs)
Nik: Makes sense, it’s not redlining that much, but the thing is if I get excited too I do talk really loud and it’s gonna be… well whatever it’ll be fine.
Russell: Whatever
Nik: ...redline a little bit
Russell: It’s a… they’re typing it up so it’s, whatever, right, um…
Nik: This’d be a great artifact…
Russell: Like what… what other… what other kinds of music or like records or… projects or whatever kinda...
Nik: You moved the… you moved the mic next to me right when I started burping
(laughter)
Nik: Ok sorry… What other kinda what?
Russell: What… what other kind of musical references come up for you?
Nik: Um from the…
Russell: Yeah
Nik: ...listening to it? It reminds me in a lot of ways of when I first visited New York, I was telling you earlier… um… I saw Rayna play as Black Meteoric Star. And um, it was with… it was just like a… I feel like it uh… it must have been like… I feel like it was maybe at MOMA PS1 or something related like that? It might have… been at Secret Project Robot, something… I don’t know I didn’t really know anything about New York and that was probably something like 2009. I guess and, the first time I ever visited New York when I decided I was gonna move here and it took me like 2 years after that, um… but she was doing Black Meteoric Star live with like a 707? And… a Sequential Circuits Six Trak… and that synth that she had made what’s it called, like, the... Harmonicon? Or I don’t know what it’s called… I don’t know I don’t know what she was… I don’t know but whatever... that synth. And there was like kind of like a dance performance (editor’s note: dance performance by Viva Ruiz and Jaiko Suzuki) and like a lighting installation (editor’s note: lighting installation by Assume Vivd Astro Focus), and I feel like it was maybe just like an opening DJ and then... Rayna playing… yeah just like a lot of songs from the album and kinda starting ambient and then… moving to this kind of like slower kind of like almost like chugging like Italo kind of like techno stuff? And then kind of going… and then going into like, fast... kind of like, uh... faster tempos. And all the stuff was, yeah, kinda like sequentially went up in tempo, um… everything was like… seemed like improvised but very well orchestrated and just like, everything was just like really lush and like um… kind of like… like at some point, like, I would look up and Rayna would just be like wearing different clothes, like have like a costume change and I’d be like how the fuck did I miss that? While you were performing live you know, you like got down behind the thing and like whatever…
Rayna as Black Meteoric Star performing at MOMA in 2009
Russell: (laughs) Yeah, yeah…
Nik: ...put on like… a different hat or something, or like… yeah… Um… So it kinda like took me back to that in a way, in some of the ways to be honest with that, or just like listening to that a little bit and just kind of like, uh… maximizing what you can do with, like a drum machine and a couple… a couple synths?
Russell: Yeah. Yeah, I, uh, I definitely feel like the… you know the psychedelic qualities from some of that… the like era of that stuff are… are really present in the drum loops.
Nik: Yeah
Russell: Um, what… as I said earlier, and… Um, and my uh... my intro to her stuff was um… Initially through Black Dice because of the filter box that she built for Bjorn Copeland, um… and just the.. the thing, like… more magnetic than, like the dudes in the band who made this fuckin like really sick, basically just like… like… (laughs) like, uh… white guy Reggae, like… like Dub soundsystem project, you know? Like… I mean my… when… my route into a lot of this shit was Broken Ear Record, y’know like?
Nik: On some level…
Russell: ...Because I was, you know like, in… cause I… I was into their shit before and, y’know…
Nik: (falsetto voice) I mean Beaches on Canyons…
Russell: That shit’s fire too…
Both: And Creature Comforts
Russell: Yeah yeah
Nik: That had elements of what you’re talking about…
Russell: Yeah
Nik: Of like a jam… like a...
Russell: It’s like Dub Di-, it’s like, yeah…
Nik: ...They’re kind of like a punk jam band, sort of like a punk jam band
Russell: It’s like what… what I feel like, you know probably attracts, what attracts...
Nik: I mean I don’t know….
Russell: ...Yo… fucking corny ass people to Phish and shit, is what attracted me to Black Dice (laughs)
Nik: Yeah yeah, “It’s free, it’s free… we’re just jammin’... we’re just jammin’ man…”
Russell: But the thing.. But the thing that was always like y’know… Like, she was always pre-, like Rayna was always kinda like present because like…
Nik: Sonically
Russell: ...the thing that people would always go up to… to…
Nik: Some type of thing
Russell: ...y’know “what is that thing, that suitcase, what the fuck is that?”
Nik: Yeeeaaah, absolutely
Russell: ...You know? And then… learning that, oh that was made by a person, who also, like does her own shit…
Nik: Yeah yeah like they didn’t necessarily make that
Russell: Yeah, and then, uh… when I started to… just like want to listen to more music that was, kind of beat-centric that came from… had that kind of like, basement show DIY art school-ish spirit, uh…. utilizing these kinds of instruments that I was starting to get into, it just like, yeah… kind of came full circle into that and um… and yeah it just, it was the first thing that I could identify within the context of something that is dance music… that um… that I was like, oh I know where this comes from. Whereas like I was kind of… I felt in… in some ways, um… just very, like, far away from um, the like, over-... the kind of… the… the… the spectre of you know, the titans that are Chicago and Detroit. I just like… you know, liked a lot of the music but felt like… I feel very, you know… I… I... respect the sacredness of… of the contributions of, you know the folks who have come before who are… who have been… you know, pushed aside or marginalized or… or… essentially erased from these kinds of things. So when I get into a form of culture like this I try to be very intentional about, you know, what… like… How am I contributing as much as I’m consuming?
Nik: Yeah
Russell: You know, or how am I contributing more, honestly, you know, um… which I feel should be a bit more of a consideration within…
Nik: Within the circle
Russell: Yeah, y’know cause like it… it happens pretty… it’s super consistently, uh, amongst like marginalized Black cultures you know, like, in this Blog House era that we’ve kinda talked about, it’s like you know… there’s a whole lot of white guys in the UK who’ve never been to a ball that started making fucking Vogue music.
Nik: That was funny
Russell: Yeah. (silence)
Nik: (laughs)
Russell: And if it was something else it could have maybe been like cool, you know, but like... but because it’s like, y’know super appropriative and… and you know the Detroit guys went through that shit…
Nik: Happens all the time...;
Russell: ...which is why they were like gate keeping a lot of the… the information and shit because… Uh, for the sake of not being erased, you know? And if I have any experience of erasure it’s that it… Erasure is, like… erasure is not very far away from death, you know…
Nik: A lot of times it leads to death
Russell: Yeahhhh (deflated sound). Very often.
Nik: A lot of times it’s the cause of it, if you… if you look at someone’s, uh career… after it’s over (laughs)... a lot of times...
Russell: Yeah… or yeah, not even after… just, just like, just the arc of someone’s career...
Nik: Yeah yeah
Russell: Just being like, “huh I wonder, huh, did… something happened around here… what’s it? And then something else… Oh oh ohhh the world’s fucked. Oh yeah oh yeah there.... Some really exploitative shit people were…
Nik: Juliuis… Julius Eastman specifically… some of the stuff there you see it…
Russell: Who? Julius Eastman? Who… who’s Julius Eastman
Nik: He’s like, a, like a Black composer in the… um, kinda like 70’s and 80’s.. The voice… you know the um… you know Julius’ voice is what’s creepy, that’s what... I only found out about Julius Eastman…
Russell: Oh that’s crazy… that’s creepy…
Nik: … you know the, uh, the uh “I wanna go Bang” but then there’s like the deep voice too behind it that’s like not Arthur…
Russell: Yeah…
Nik: That’s Julius.
Russell: Word.
Nik: But Julius was also, like a composer… like more experimental composer, like who did stuff with like… y’know like that would play shows with like John Cage and stuff…
Russell: Uh huh
Nik: ...and was kinda like classically trained and would do these kinda like piano pieces and stuff like that. Kind of like… in between Steve Reich and um... Phillip Glass or something, but, I don’t know… has more character… and a lot of it was… and yeah had one piece called like….. And it was also queer…
Russell: Yeah
Nik: ...and stuff and, I feel like got… There’s all this stuff (laughs) now we’re getting… I can’t believe we’re getting whatever but maybe this is how it’s coming together…
Russell: No this is entirely… this is connected.
Nik: For you to find out this through doing this interview…
Russell: This is connected!
Nik: …this also New York, yeah, also within the New York scene…
Russell: Yeah, yeah and, like this downtown music culture we’re talking about…
Nik: Yeah yeah and like doing shows in that…
Russell: Yeah
Nik: ...but didn’t really have, like, recordings necessarily? And I think also was more of an outspoken person, like had a piece called Evil Nigger, Gay Guerilla and another piece called Femenine and another piece called… I don’t know was just like, more confrontational than like, maybe y’know Steve Reich...
Russell: Word
Nik: ...or like some academic stuff was taught to kind of like… not as much directly show your emotions or your influences or be about yourself as much as opposed to be about like the process, or something, like… all of Steve Reich’s stuff is more just about like, almost looking at it from like a scientifical level.
Russell: Yeah
Nik: So, uh, yeah Julius Eastman was kinda more just like… yeah, this is like… was making that kind of stuff but was just like making it more emotionally visceral and stuff.
Russell: Mm hmm
Nik: And then....
Russell: Making it about stuff (laughs)
Nik: Yeah yeah, about just the experience of being Black and Gay and probably you know, like bipolar and shit like that… you know whatever, but also being a fucking genius.
Russell: Yeah
Nik: I think it was like, you know like someone who’s like Bernie Worrell who was like doing like y’know like concertos… he was like… he was like a child prodigy, like within classical music and stuff.
Russell: Yeah, yes
Nik: It’s just like, yeah and then um… It’s really sad too because it’s someone who would be so… you know, who would be… who everyone would probably love now, you know, in this… whatever…
Russell: So he… so you said he passed away…
Nik: Yeah, but kind of like… homeless and um, unknown and just like without anything alone in Buffalo, um, after like, kind of like maybe having a, like, confrontation with… John Ca-... at a performance with John Cage of like, maybe trying to out Cage, who um… was Gay but was never… was never out his whole life…
Russell: Yeah, yeah
Nik: ...like it was just kind of well known but this kind of like accepted secret of, whatever, the Avant Gardies…
Russell: It still gave… gave him a certain level of access, to be…
Nik: Yeah, yeah, I guess yeah… And, you know, but yeah so he was like, “why aren’t people talking about this” kind of and tried to do.... Had some thing where he was, like kind of trying to do like a dance. And kind of like trying to… or having a dance or like trying to point at Cage because was actually there, and I guess Cage got uncomfortable and was just like… you’re blacklisted basically. Like people just said like, you know, people… like I have this book that kind of like… I can let you borrow it or whatever, that details some of it, that I just got recently, but um… and a lot of this stuff wasn’t known cause it just… I don’t know… there was no fuckin, uh...
Russell: Who’s writing that down? Who’s writing that down?
Nik: Yeah Resident Advisor’s not gonna fuckin… whatever…
Russell: Yeah who’s got the receipts on the live Eastman mess? (laughs)
Nik: Whatever… there was no, like Resident Advisor or whatever at that time, I mean… not that they would be on the cover or something like that til after this person died…
Russell: Nah they would… they would cover the Twitter thread…
Nik: Nah they’re capitalizing on the reissues or whatever and that’s cool, um… to, you know at least that some people are getting to hear the stuff that Julius was doing but, yeah that… that’s kind of like the short version of it but…
Russell: Fuck.
Nik: But it’s just like I guess, more and more… but now people are, kind of… there are… like these performances of the music are happening and some of the recordings that were done and stuff, people are finding all this footage and stuff but yeah that’s uh absolutely yeah just somebody who just, I guess…
Russell: That’s fucking wild
Nik: It’s… yeah when I first heard it I just, like… I think I just was like… I was like, How is there… Cause I would always… when listening to alot of the downtown stuff I was always like, oh yeah, like there’s like… there’s like um… It’s like, wow there’s like Laurie Anderson, Phillip Glass and Steve Reich and Terry Riley and LaMonte Young and… all these people and um…
Russell: How is there possibly not a single Black person that was part of this…
Nik: And there was! But he fucking died… he fucking died. Alone. It’s just… I was like, this… what?!? Like, this is real?!?!
Both: (laughter)
Nik: This sounds like it’s like somebody made up a fictional movie, you know or whatever, like, to… and it was just like, nah this really… and then yeah… Like, I found… I found out about, um... Julius like, fuckin like…
Russell: Do you ever like see…
Nik: ...like a few years ago, like not that long ago
Russell: Do you ever, like see yourself in that experience?
Nik: Yeah! It’s terrible, yeah… That’s, I mean, that’s I guess what you’re trying to avoid but, yeah.
Russell: That makes me fuck… That makes me so sad… That makes me so sad, that I like could anticipate that that would be your answer.
Nik: Yeah. Do you?
Russell: All the time!! Cla… Constantly dude!
Nik: Yeah
Russell: That’s what all this shit is about. You know… it sucks!
Nik: It’s just like a saint, that’s what I’m saying, he’s like a saint! It’s weird, ‘cause he… Yeah, I don’t know… he...
Russell: It makes me… It makes me so sad, I mean you know I’ve talked about this a lot because of, you know working with Frankie’s archive and stuff, Frankie Knuckles’ archive and… and you know, like… like there’s a K-Hand record in there and there’s, like, a bunch of Paul Johnson records in there and like Dust Traxx stuff and shit like that and it’s like… You know, and with them… the… You know, the news of their deaths coming like within 12 hours of this shit it’s just like… You know, he was 50.
Nik: Yeah
Russell: She was 56.
Nik: Yeah
Russell: Both of them were still working. You know so it’s like…
Nik: I think Julius was, uh probably around that age too, he wasn’t…
Russell: Yeah, how much time do we have left, you know?
Nik: Yeah yeah and like, seeing my uncle. Also just I mean seeing my uncle die…
Russell: Yep! Pfffhhh….
Nik: ...when I was 21 and then my aunt died shortly after, it’s just weird. Um… around that age of, like yeah I think like… 50
Russell: Yeah… It’s fuckin’... it’s fucked up, yo. It’s like baked into the shit.
Nik: (laughter) That’s why I said something, you know someone...
Russell: This is the grime, dude, you know… This is the grime, you know that we’re… this is the fucking… you know.
Nik: Someone better…
Russell: Crispy white force is our armor to an extent, it’s like if I’m only gonna be here and this is, like, what’s expected of me is this shit that’s on this fucking, you know… this fucking downtrodden ass fuckin’ train station then…
Nik: Yeah, but some that… I think that some of that urgency is reflected in the sounds.
Russell: Yeah
Nik: But it’s just that… it’s definitely sad too… continue. Um...
Russell: (out breath)
Nik: And and feel, you know um… yeah there’s a… there’s a blues there
Russell: Yeah, it makes me sad… it makes me sad for what we have lost that we know of, and the infinite amount that we have lost that we will never know.
Nik: That’s the thing, if it was Julius… I feel like yeah I feel like that’s what I always think about like yeah when I listen to like DJ Sprinkles too or something, like, I feel like DJ Sprinkles that Midtown 120 Blues really captures that, you’re just like… what about all the DJs that just like… yeah like… during the 90’s that just like whatever like lost… like whoever like... died prematurely all different kind of ways.
Russell: I mean Ron Hardy and Larry Levan died… both died in ‘92.
Nik: Yeah Ron Hardy really just like um, never got to see a lot of the stuff…
Russell: A lot of his influence
Nik: Which is just… just massive. It goes across everything. That’s yeah… and I always think about that when I listen to his old mixes.
Russell: So… kinda in relation to the Julius…
Nik: ...Cassette tapes… Cassette tapes too! That’s especially...
Russell: ...Yeah yeah, but what you were… what you were saying about Julius Eastman and being like, “Oh you don’t know his name necessarily, but you know his voice… from Go Bang!”...
Nik: That’s true because he literally worked with… he was kinda like the parallel person to Arthur Russell in a way, like... doing that kind of music in New York.
Russell: So… so… yeah, So… like, I mean inversely… inversely… there, like… Mike Servito posted on Twitter like a couple months ago that there’s no recording of Ron Hardy’s voice.
Nik: That’s the thing, yeah he’s just like… he’s the ghost. He’s like a saint. It’s wild.
Russell: No video footage of him?
Nik: No it’s just a couple pictures and there’s like… A lot of it is hearsay, you know… A lot of it is, just like oral tradition, um… Apparently you know, uh… like, uh… yeah Hieroglyphic Being and Traxx, I think maybe saw, um you know like went to the Music Box and saw Ron Hardy as a kid? Maybe it was like another night, but yeah it’s like stuff like that where it’s just like… it becomes kind of almost like a… this crazy oral tradition… Or someone’s just like “I heard”, you know, “I heard someone heard that Ron did this or whatever” but that the… where I guess like House Music comes from right? And stuff so...
Russell: Mythos
Nik: Yeah. Or he’s like yeah… like the… Or even just like them competing with each other, just hearing Frankie talk about Ron, there’s a lot of stuff that like, my idea of like, um… Like yeah, amd their like, like Ron and Larry and their kind of like… and them kind of like being competitive with each other but also just being like co-... Yeah there’s like a few interviews where like, you know like Frankie um… Frankie Knuckles is talking about like Ron Hardy or... um Larry Levan and stuff. That’s yeah…
Russell: Word, well… that’s 30, I think.
Nik: That’s 30? Ok. Did we talk about… anything enough?
Russell: I think… eh I think so, I think we had, some I mean this is y’know… I think we hit some...
Nik: Should I talk about the studio?
Russell: ...good zones.
Nik: Ok. All right, yeah, it doesn’t have to be… I guess it doesn’t have to be…
(Recording ends)